[goodguy]

Ok, my seven year old want to play goal. We have some RBK Pulse Jr. 6.0's and another set of Itech Vamps 7.8 (both 26").

So, being inexperienced at the goalie position - I was wondering about the butterfly position: It seems to me a very unnatural position.
When I personally try to simulate it, it is almost like I cannot get my feet to lay sideways to the ice without feeling like my knees will break from the twist.
While I am chalking that up to lack of flexibility, I am also wondering if I am wrong about what the butterfly truly is because it dosen't just feel like a flexibility issue -it feels like a "bones aren't made to turn that way issue".

So, when trying to help my kid learn to get into a butterfly position, I have tried many things. I have him get as close as he can to a butterfly - then I check to see what straps/ties are too tight (restricting the pad rotation) and loosen those up. This has helped some. THe toe ties seem to be the biggest restictor as his toe caps want to point straight down yet the ties (if they are snug) dont let the pad rotate - they would if his toes could point toward the boards but again, trying to ge in that position seems to twist the bones unnaturally.

Is this something we just have to practice and get more flexibility or are there some things we can do (equipment wise) to make the butterfly more easily attainable.

After studying his pads and how loosening them gave a bit more rotation, loosening the toe ties worked some but also left the pad floppy upon standup and he was not getting pads back in position well. So I found some ideas like elastic toe ties or sliding toe rails, etc. which allow the toe skate to twist and still be pointing almost down while the pads can flex and rotate yet get the pad back in position on stand up. I am also conisdering trying to lose the thighguards and go with a kneepad/thighguard combo as the TG's seem to be getting hung up on the pants.

Are there any other things I would be trying. Are there any new pads, tricks, new things that are allowing people without bendable femurs to play the position.

I did notice a big improvement in the pad rotation using the Itech Vamps over the RBK's which I was surprised about because they look so similar. There has to be some solution to this - are all goalies having this kind of trouble with rotation or am I doing something wrong?

Thanks.

This post has been edited by goodguy: 17 July 2009 - 12:35 AM

[Law Goalie]

The butterfly is indeed an unnatural position - in fact, goaltending itself is an unnatural position. No natural human instinct tells you to get in the way of a hard, heavy speeding object that you can't eat; many tell you to get out of its way. That said, it's amazing what we find fun in spite of ourselves. Some people jump out of airplanes; I throw myself in front of pucks.

There are a few reasons why you can't 'simulate' the butterfly without proper pads. First, it's basically impossible to have the toes of both feet pointing forward in the butterfly unless you have double-jointed hips. Second, it's basically impossible to flare your hips out and push your feet up in line with your hips unless your knees are supported above your ankles; that's the reason why all modern goalie-pads have a knee-stack or knee-block that lifts the knee about 2.5" off the ice. Third, the butterfly itself is not really a position of the body; it's an illusion of the body's position created by the position of the *pads*. The pads rotate around the legs until they're perpendicular to the ice; the legs themselves are doing something else entirely. However, even the attempt to make the pads behave like that places such strain on the hips, groin, and knees (and consequently the back and ankles) that we're seeing injuries in young goaltenders that we never saw before. This is partly why I absolutely refuse to train kids under the age of 12 in butterfly mechanics. The butterfly as a save?- sure. The butterfly as a technique of playing low to the ice?- never. Their joints can't handle it. They can learn the moves and fool around, but I never drill them in it. I don't even advise ramping up that process until PHV.

As far as the solution, if your kid is in 26" pads, he should be young enough that flexibility is not a limiting factor. It's probably an issue created partly by his technique in moving to and from the butterfly (ie. dropping and recovering), and partly by the equipment. The equipment is an immediate adjustment and a limiter of his technical development, so we'll deal with that first.

With respect to the equipment, you were on the right track when you tried to loosen restrictive straps in the butterfly. There is, however, an easier way. He will need your help with this at first, and it's helpful to bring a pencil and a pen or marker to mark strap positions.

Set the pads on the floor in the butterfly position (this is sometimes referred to as the "ghost-fly"), then have your son kneel down into them and reposition the pads so that they sit comfortably against his legs in a fully-rotated position. Start by doing up the straps at the knee (both the elastic knee-lock and the leather or nylon knee-strap) so that it holds the knee of the pad snugly against his knee without being restrictive. Next, do the boot-strap in a similar manner. Tightening the boot-strap should NOT pull your son's foot up against the pad: the strap is only there to keep the pad close to his foot, not to support or hold his foot against the pad. You want the foot to move freely within a limited range, and the boot-strap is a crucial limiter.

Then come the toe-ties. You are absolutely right to observe that they can the biggest restriction to foot movement when tied improperly. Here's what you need to do... First, make sure your son is still settled in a comfortable position with his pads fully rotated. Take one pad's toe-ties and pull them straight to the toe of your son's skate (ie. where you'd start to tie it on); mark that length with the pencil. DO NOT move your son's foot to meet the toe-ties; move the toe-ties to his foot. Put a second double-knot in the toe-ties exactly where you made that mark, something like this:

This gives you the exact amount of slack in the toe-ties your son will need to move naturally, while keeping the pads as snug as possible. Tie these knotted laces securely to his skate, then do the other pad.

Do up the rest of the straps in a similar fashion. You don't want them to change the position of his legs at all; just to firmly support them in that position. Mark all these strap position with the pencil. Have your son pop up to his feet and do a few butterfly dry-runs on the floor. DON'T tighten anything that feels too loose (he's used to tight pads, so his frame of reference is going to be misleading), but do loosen anything that still restricts his movement - although at this point, nothing should. At this point, he goes out for a skate and re-revaluates everything. As soon as he's off the ice, perform adjustments and re-mark all these strap positions with the pen or marker for future reference.

The difference you noticed in rotation between the Itechs and the RBK's was almost assuredly a matter of strapping. The Vamps are designed to be worn a little more snugly than the RBK's; tying an XPulse pad tightly to the leg would be extremely uncomfortable and basically impossible to use. It would be a little like trying to downhill ski in snowshoes.

You don't need to buy elastic toe-ties or sliding toe-bridges at this point. There's no reason you can't, but I'd save that decision for his next pair of pads. That said, generally speaking, a sliding toe-bridge will function best with a Velocity-style pad (square boot with a flat bottom) and elastic toe-ties work best with a rounder boot and more or a boot-channel (like your son's RBK's and Vamps). Both are definite improvements over knotted toe-laces, though some people do still swear by those (chiefly users of the RBK Premier series).

There is absolutely no need to buy those overpriced 'Flextoe' elastics - you can get the same thing for about two dollars total at your local MEC or REI outdoor store with 3mm dynamic/elastic cord and a few Cordlocs. You can't knot elastic cord (it always unties itself), so the Cordlocs are necessary to hold the cord in place; you need either one large or two small Cordlocs per skate. I use this same setup myself. If you decide to go for the sliders, I'd suggest buying sliding toe-bridges from smithhockey.com (Pete Smith), battram.com (Scott Battram) or protectiveathleticwear.com (Sara Marschand). Smith and Battram are two fo the finest makers of custom pads in the business; Sara's a fantastic repairs and accessories worker just starting her own equipment line. All three can help you with installation. Smith is currently the cheapest at $20 USD, and he invented them!

Beyond this, I would strongly advise ditching the thigh-boards and buying some quality knee-pads for your son. Not only do thigh-boards often hinder movement, they're illegal at higher levels of play and will be soon at ALL levels of play. Get him used to the knee-pads now. Smith just started making some, in fact.

That was a little lengthy, but I hope it's helpful.

As for your son's technique, once the pads are out of his way, it's really just a matter of learning to drive his knees down into the ice, rather than simply letting his knees 'go' and falling down on them. It's the difference between an active movement and a passive one.

The simple physics of that knee-drive will force the pads to start rotating around his legs. The movement of his feet behind the pads and the pressure of his legs down on the pads will complete the movement. Believe it or not, it will start to feel natural.

This post has been edited by Law Goalie: 17 July 2009 - 08:12 AM

[goodguy]

Law - THANKS a MILLION!!!

That really addresses exactly my questions and concerns.

The idea behind getting him in position first (before strapping) is a simple one but one I overlooked nonetheless.

The toe tie knotting was something that crossed mind but having you verifty it - makes me feel much better.

Also, the fact that you verify it is not something my kid "should" be able to do naturally makes me feel better - I was beginning to think we were genetically unqualified for the position.

I also agree that young kids should not be trained in the butterfly - it puts so much strain on the body and coaches and parents all seem to expect that their kid should be a butterfly goalies at mites now if they are going to be any good.

Along the lines of the elastic toe ties, I was wondering about pad recentering upon standing back up from a bfly position.

Am I wrong to think the pads wil naturally recenter themselves on the leg and be ready for the next shot after standing back up? It seems if the pads are "loose" to allow rotation, then I would thin they would have a difficult time getting back square after getting back in to the ready position. Am I thinking about this correctly -or- is this misguided. Do goalies often dink around with their pads after groundwork to get them back right or should they naturally pop back to a non rotated position? Hence the idea behind the elastic toe ties - giving a stretch and then snap back effect helping to reposition the pads upon getting back up.

Thanks for the thighboard ideas, I am thinking the stock one does not allow the pad to move freely into rotated position as it seems to get hungup on the pants (although we are using skater pants and not goaler ones - what are the differences/advantages of goal pants ?) - the seperate kneepad/board idea seems to be a better option and might give him a bit better elevation on the kneepad and allow easier rotation when bfly'ing ala toes pointing down. With that in mind - I have heard of attaching thighboards to the pant - are there combination kneepads with thighboard type protection - do they work?

Again, thanks for your responses - it is great to get these nagging questions answered and realize I am not totally crazy.

[Law Goalie]

Glad I could help!

Getting pads to return to their original orientation on the legs is not generally as tricky as it seems. When you get the knack of that downward knee-drive I described that rotates the pad into the butterfly, the opposite movement (snapping the knees back up) will put the pads back in place. At most, you'll need to give a little tap on the outside of the pads to re-centre them completely.

I don't find the elastic toe-ties help much with re-centring the pad. Their main purpose (at least in my experience) is allowing the foot to move away from the pad without feeling too floppy. My pads have a very deep boot-channel, and in order to find a comfortable position in the butterfly, my foot needs to back out of the channel entirely. On a pad with a flat boot (ie. no boot-channel to speak of) this movement away from the pad is largely pointless.

Player pants are generally much longer and slimmer through the thigh and hip than goalie pants. I would suggest picking some up, since the padding around the front of the hip is MUCH less protective in player pants.

The terminology around knee/thigh protection is a little peculiar, but here's a breakdown:

Thigh-boards are large, flat flaps (about 10" square) laced or sewn onto the back of the pad semi-permanently, then strapped to the leg. No longer legal for us.

Thigh-guards can be one of two kinds, both of which can be legal for use. The first (and earliest) are curved flaps contoured to the shape of the thigh, laced into the pads and strapped to the leg just like thigh-boards. The second are curved the same way and strap to the leg, but attach to the pants rather than the pad. Both protect the front and side of the knee and thigh from pucks, but don't wrap around the knee.

Knee-pads wrap around the knee above and below the joint, and can attach to the pants, but generally just strap to the leg.

Which of these you ultimately choose depends on personal preference and on the design of your pads and pants. (Many Bauer pants actually have the knee protection built in.) Typically, thigh-boards leave the knee-joint itself feeling unfettered, but are prone to snagging in the pants and generally being a nuisance, as you've observed. The majority of people who have claimed any great success with thigh-boards are those who use them to make saves, rather than strictly to protect their knees. Thigh-guards are something of a compromise. Knee-pads are the lowest overall profile, but because they sit directly on the joint, are sometimes felt to hinder movement.

My personal belief is that thigh-guards and thigh-boards are of misguided design. They are attached to the part of the pad (the thigh above the knee) that moves the most between butterfly and stance: a full 90-degrees relative to the knee and a pretty big length of arc. Keeping that upper part of the pad attached to the leg in any way is one of the biggest problems in goalie design - it's the reason why so many goalies don't even use a thigh-strap at the top of their pads now, and many other connect it below the knee on a diagonal where it does nothing.

A well-made knee-pad offers protection superior to that of a thigh-board, and should not interfere with the movement of the joint in any major way. My personal recommendations are the new Smith model, Brown, and the Brian's ones that resemble the Brown ones. The only design that I would stay away from is the older RBK design (copied for a while by Itech) that had a hard black plastic cup on the outside of the knee. I never knew anyone who could use those things off the shelf without major pain, and the pros who used them wore heavily modified versions.

Though some people strongly advocate attaching the knee-pads to the pants, this is no longer legal, and I've found that it only really works well with the Armadillo-style knee found on Bauer goalie pants.

[goodguy]

Law, again you provided exactly what I was looking for in terms of information and education.

As much as I joke about dreading my son playing goal - I somewhat like the technical challenge it presents over playing out. While I hesitated to let him get between the pipes since he is a strong skater (and he is a real beginner at goal but young enough to not have bad habits), I like the fact that there is something of a science in it (positioning, etc) which I can learn also and try to teach. As my wife would say "great ... more distraction from what you really should be doing ..." lol.

Your earlier advice was spot on: I had him kneel on the kneepad area of the legpad in butterfly position and really studied how his legs naturally wanted to be and strapped and tied everything to fit his natural position. And IT WORKED BEAUTIFULLY. Form the frustration of wondering if he could ever be flexible enough to butterfly (and wondering how anyone really does it) to watching him snap down easily into a perfect position bfly (after making your suggested changes in how I strapped/tied him up) - it was really a neat moment. He was like "check this out dad...SNAP !!" and was down in a perfect position super fast and then back up in the ready position.

Everything I worried about (toe ties dangling under skates, pads repositioning poorly, etc. was all for naught - things looked really good. I KENW I was doing something wrong and thanks to you - we fixed it. Just in time too as he is scheduled to be goalie tomorrow for a 3v3 so he can work on his technique.

Now if we can just figure out how to make goaltending cheaper, I would be all set. Thankfully many goalies can "skate free" (they should say "stand" free) for these scrimmages. Now maybe I can hit up his coach for a discount on monthly ice bills if he commits to goal full time? Don't necessarily want to lock him into goal at this age but he says he really wants to - that is, until the first game he gets really shelled. At that point the position does not seem so fun and at that point you can tell if your kid really wants to be in goal or not for real.

BTW - One more equipment question - he is currently using an Ollie helmet (probably not the best) although it is brand new, I got it for cheap new/used, and it fits him well. I figure at his age (7 & 8) they arent going to rack one off his skull too hard. Attached is a dangler which seem to fit very well to cover the neck for straight on shots.
I want to get him a throat collar also as he has only been using his skater neckguard - want to avoid collar bone shots and maybe shots hiting the neck from the side if he is sprawling, etc.

I have heard great things about the Malteste (just borrowed a Brian's Beast to try for tomorrow) - I realize the Maltese are pretty steep price wise - any advice ?

One more thing while I have you - how big should a catcher be for a kid - I have a Nike Bauer Vapor X Comp catch & block and they seem to ok size wise but I'm wondering if "bigger is better" applies to catchers?

I know this is too much info but I am also considering getting the Pro Hybrid Goal Videos http://www.prohybrid...ng.com/pht/node just to get him started on the correct path with some correct fundamentals. I have also heard of a Between the Pipes dvd - any ideas on what I can get some good info from to instruct him correctly. Private lessons are going to be a bit further down the road unless he shows some real talent.

This post has been edited by goodguy: 17 July 2009 - 09:05 PM

[Law Goalie]

Well, I'm pleased as punch the strapping worked out. It's always a bit of an experiment. I've always said that the best goalie equipment is the kind you don't even have to think about - to use a slightly hackneyed expression, it should become a natural extension of the body. Once you've got that level of comfort, athleticism can take over. I know exactly that feeling of joyful relief when a piece of gear stops being restrictive and starts performing for you: it's a physical epiphany.

The one bit of armchair coaching I will offer your son is this: whenever he might be tempted to "stand free" at a pickup session, he really should "skate free." Learning to skate with strength from the stance is crucial. Any time he might be idle on the ice, encourage him to practise his movements around the crease. More on this later...

As far as making the position cheaper, my advice is to buy good used gear rather than cheap new stuff. Anything Made in Canada is ideal; among the off-shore made stuff, the mid-range RBK stuff (7K,8K) and Sherwood C-5 are a cut above. Trust your instincts; if it looks cheap and crappy, it probably is. Quality used gear will hold its resale value FAR better than cheap new stuff, so if you're willing to put in a little bit of time to re-sell and re-buy each year as he grows, he'll be well-equipped for very little in terms of rolling cost.

Some of the better goalie-specialist stores also have very generous trade-in programs for around 50% of the original purchase price. This sounds like a bit of a rip-off, but in terms of convenience and quality it's a pretty damn good deal.

As to the other gear...

Where gloves are concerned, SMALLER is better. A good snug fit and a feeling on control on the hand trumps a big sloppy net-filler any day.

I'm not a fan of Olie masks - even the marginally better ones. To be perfectly frank, the lower-end ones (like the cheapest Itechs in the 1200-2500 range) are designed to look like 'big kid' masks while providing less protection than a simple player's helmet and cage. They're made of Lexan, and in some cases the foam is actually a structural part of the mask; I wouldn't trust them to protect me from a ten-year old shooting tennis balls. Bear in mind that even the bets goalie mask offers negligible protection to the back of the skull, and for a beginning goalie, falls are more dangerous than the puck. If, however, he starts playing against maturing teenagers (14+) and adults, he will need better protection from direct frontal impacts than a helmet and cage can provide. The most important thing to look for in a mask is a good fit. Knowing the materials used to make it are a close second. A mask made from good epoxy resin and fiberglass will always beat a mask made with cheaper vinyl-ester or polyester resins and a few bits of Kevlar.

I find dangler's an incredible annoyance. If your son doesn't find that it gets in his way, he should stick with it, but bear in mind that they can be cracked quite easily. A skater neckguard alone is not enough to take a puck at any speed. He'll need at least a goalie collar. I recommend the Maltese Combo (collar + clavicle) to EVERYONE, but it isn't cheap. I'd suggest saving that one up until you feel the level of shots he's facing warrant it. That Brian's Beast is an excellent junior collar: a good layering of Jenpro, plastic, and HD and LD foams.

I agree that there's no point turning your son into a full-time anything (let alone a goalie) at this stage. Let him skate out as much as he wants, swap gear with his friends, whatever. The more variety the better. I've had over-eager parents ask what they should 'make their kids do' over the summer to be better goalies; I usually tell them tennis and soccer would be better than more time on ice or at the roller rink.

There's little reason to have a paid goalie coach at this point. If there's a volunteer, great, but no coaching is better than bad coaching. if and when you do get him a lesson or two, when you're picking the coach, look for teaching credentials rather than hockey credentials. It doesn't matter how high the guy got in the system if he doesn't know how to teach it.

Pursuant to that, my personal favourite DVD series are the Future Pro sets from Steve McKichan (futurepro.com). Keeks has a BS.Ed, was the Leafs' goalie coach for five years, and has contributed immensely to the literature and science of goaltending. He has a superior teaching resume and the best pedagogical mind I've seen in hockey. His DVD series are extremely well-thought out, and the sections on skating technique are superb. The first series is a little dated, but still totally sound; the newer series should be out soon, and it looks to be even better.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you're damn near the ideal goalie dad. You don't sound the least bit inclined to push your son; just to be supportive in every way possible. Keep up the good research, and in a matter of months, you'll know more about the position than most self-proclaimed 'experts'. Beware of anyone who says there's only one way to play the game. You're likely already two steps beyond them.

This post has been edited by Law Goalie: 17 July 2009 - 09:44 PM

[goodguy]

Again Law - Great post - in fact, some of the most informed and well written internet postings I have seen in any forum.

You should consider making a living at it, starting a website or writing a book. It seems you have the patience, character, experience and skill to share your positive knowledge with even more people.

Thanks again and I'm sure I will be asking much more soon.

You have definitely made my day, week, month as I now feel I am on the right path with getting my son interested in another part of the game he can gain some enjoyment out of. It is expensive, time consuming and alot of work - but damn it is fun.

P.S. - Checked out the overdrive site as I was hearing some rumblings about it and didn't know what the heck and "overdrive" was. Although I'm sure it is frowned upon by hockey purists, the site sure made a long and hard case for the adoption of the gizmo. He had me convinced. It seems there are more and more grumblings lately about goalie injuries attributed to the butterfly style and the fact that my son now is taking up the position, I am interested in minimizing his injuries and long term health issues related to sports. I am in the US so it sounds like the overdrive is illegal but from my experience (and as they point out on the overdrive site in very long detailed explanations) a slip out on skates (into the splits or other strained position) can have serious consequenses. My nephew, while playing, skating out, got into a battle along the boards, fell into a partial splits position as a 190 lb kid landed ontop of him (my nephew was all of 120 lbs at the time). He ended up with a torn muscle and a dislocated hip - which certainly looked painful as he was writhing around and had to be taken off by ambulance.

So in reviewing the forces goalies experience (as explained on the overdrive site), with their weight coming down during an athletic move/stretch to make a save, and in vulnerable positions - I sort of agree that something to give a more serious push to get the goalie across and make the save (without needing to stretch unnaturally) might be a good thing ???

AND - my son was complaining about the dangler today saying "Dad, I can't see anything looking down with this thing hanging there - do I really need it?" I wrote an email to Phil @ Maltese to see if the had any seconds or mistakes he could sell for a discount - but, from reading his posts, I don't get the impression he is the type of guy to make too many mistakes on his gear.

This post has been edited by goodguy: 17 July 2009 - 11:23 PM

[Law Goalie]

That's quite flattering, but in all seriousness, I don't consider myself that much of an authority. I don't have the background in kinesiology and physiology I'd consider necessary for anything all that meaningful (and which is exactly what all the coaches I recommend do have). What I like about a forum like this (literally) is that whenever I'm wrong, someone is there to point it out. And, to be perfectly honest, writing books is exactly what I come on here to escape!

John McLeod is a great guy, and I've known a lot of goalies who swear by the Overdrive for rehabbing and preventing knee and hip injuries. That said, I'm not convinced that they're all that useful for younger goalies - partly because they've been ruled illegal (on silly grounds, mind you), so it's not great to develop a learned dependence on them, but chiefly because that kind of catastrophic injury you're talking about (extended joint and a big weight coming down on top) isn't going to be prevented by it. Slip-outs per-se aren't really a danger until there's already been some trauma to the joint, unless they're happening with such frequency that there's chronic wear on the joint from hyperextension. I'd say it's much more important to ensure that your son has well-sharpened and well-profiled skates with lots of blade left every time he steps on the ice. Most slip-outs are a result of hollows too shallow, bad sharpenings, dull blades, chipped edges, etc. -- all the thing that will cause a goalie to push expecting one result and get another his body wasn't prepared for. If he ever ends up (god forbid) with one of those 'lower body injuries', certainly keep the ODB's in mind.

It's a rare goalie who doesn't loathe a dangler. If he doesn't like it, get rid of it. I've seen enough of them shatter and cut their bearers to make me hesitate before putting them on anyone.

Believe it or not, I've never actually seen a Maltese second. The one thing Phil might be able to do for you is to make a Combo that will grow a bit with your son by putting a very large amount of velcro at the back of the collar: enough to have plenty extra on a 12" neck and to just cover a 17" neck, say. I've never fully understood why there's gel coverage all the way around to the back of the neck anyway. I'm not 100% sure that this construction will work, and I can't recall seeing it previously, but it can't hurt to ask. However, as I said, he'll be fine with an off-the-shelf collar if you can't find a sensible and economical way to get him into a Maltese. Use that Brian's Beast as a benchmark (it's a pretty damn good one) and go from there. When he's stopped growing, you can look into a Maltese and a custom mask to set him up for life.

This post has been edited by Law Goalie: 18 July 2009 - 08:03 AM

[goodguy]

Thanks again.

[goodguy]

Well, I just learned something today - sharp skates are sort of important for goalies too.
My son played in net for a 3v3 for two 1 hr sessions.

The first session he wore his regular hockey skates and did very well. He could bfly and get in position, etc.
In the second session he put on some used goal skates we had borrowed (Graf Goaler's) - I figured he "goal"skates would be better for goal eh?
WRONG - at least not sharp goal skates are not better. I did not have a chance to sharpen them but thought.."goalies don't need them sharp as they want to slide laterally"...

Well, what I found out the hard way (for him) was sharpness has a purpose when in goal skates. First, he could not push off very well as the skate would slip out easily. Second, he could not go down with any confidence due to the fact that as soon as he tried to spread out the skates would slip out unpredictiably and he would sort of fall forward instead of go down into a bfly.

There was no way for me to switch him back to his regular skates in the middle of the session and it was painful to watch him have to standup the rest of the session getting shelled because he couldn't really move well. But, as much as he was ultra frustrated, he did not say anything about quitting trying goal. It was a good test of adversity and he hung in there and tried his best despite his frustration. I mean these suckers were dull...lol. The Overdrive was looking better and better everytime he slipped into a painful looking unplanned splits.

The worst part was having his pride hurt a little as 16 of his buddies and their parents were watching him stand there a bit dejected but still trying.

I figure it is sort of a life lesson of having to make the best of a not perfect scenario - it is just a game and supposed to be fun although I know he was feeling handcuffed. I am impressed that he didn't come off the ice and say "I am never playing goal again". At least he has some determination - more than I would have had.

So here goes, another adventure in "what the hell kind of ____________ should I get him now" (fill in the blank piece of equipment - in this case, goal skates) - I mean come on - if I can't get goal skates right then you should just give it up. They seem very simple. The pair he was using were Graf Goaler's and although they seemed like decent skates - it is hard to tell when they weren't sharp. I think the larger toe cap/skate plastic cover on the skate (as compared to his regular skates) was making his edge pop off the ice sooner (since they stick out farther and he could only get to a certian point before his edge was lifted off the ice), combined with the shorter boot conspired to really challenge him to learn the new skates tendencies as his regular skates could keep an edge on the ice longer when tilting in to go into a drop or bfly save.

So - any goal skate ideas suggestions that might prevent me from messing up his head any further. I am getting there - it is a process - but I am making (slow) progress.

This post has been edited by goodguy: 18 July 2009 - 11:10 PM

[Law Goalie]

Ah, the skates - another aspect of goaltending made more difficult than it should be.

You have arrived at absolutely the right conclusion: sharp skates are the closest thing to a necessity for contemporary goalies apart from first-rate head, chest and crotch protection.

More importantly, it sounds like you and your son each came away from that with knowledge more valuable about his own character. But on to the skates...

The 'conventional wisdom' -- which originated in the years when the rules prevented goalie from dropping to their knees except by accident or in prayer (I'm not kidding) -- is that goalies should have skates that offered as little resistance as possible to shuffling, that is, moving perpendicular to the lead skate-blade without lifting it. This lead to things like flat-cuts (cross-grinding a goalie's skate blades totally flat) and cross-cutting (where lateral channels were actually carved into the blades) and goalies sharpening their skates once a year. At the same time, the profile of goalie skates was as close to flat as possible in order to provide a long, stable base that counteracted the lack of hollow edge. Even up to the last generation of Tacks goalie skates, CCM put a 100-foot profile on their goalie blades, which is a radius of a circle so huge that several people could comfortably play hackey-sack on top of it.

Most contemporary goalie coaches will advise starting at a 1/2" hollow and adjusting from there in 1/8" and finally in 1/16" measures. I've gradually settled into a 7/16" hollow, down from 1 1/4" in my playing days. A deeper hollow does indeed make lateral shuffling more arduous. That said, with improved technique and leg strength I find that I can still get a good 2-3 feet of lateral glide out of one push if I need it. (NB that I haven't yet tried the new Blackstone FBV sharpening on my skates, but I hope to as soon as my LHS gets the machine.) Where your son likes his hollow is strictly personal preference. I know one lunatic who gets his done at 1/16" (as deep as a machine will go) and has actually reached the physical limit of shuffling: he has to make little side-to-side hops.

This deeper hollow is generally paired with a much shorter profile, ranging from 30 feet (RBK, CCM, Bauer) to 22 feet (Graf). I'm on a 30' profile myself, chiefly because I like the stability and power of the longer blade. Again, it's all down to preference, but your son may very well prefer a shorter profile since he's coming from player skates (which are probably in the 9'-11' range).

As to the differences in goalie and player skates, the profile is the major one in terms of feel; combine that with the fact that goalie blades are longer than player blades at the same boot-size, slightly but noticeably thinner, and that the cowling places the boot much closer to the ice than the taller holder of a player skate, and you can understand why so few people switch easily from one to the other. As you rightly observe, his player skates keep the blade on the ice at a lower angle than goalie skates because the blade sits higher and the skate is narrower.

The boots of goalie skates are another matter entirely. As you've observed, they usually come up shorter on the ankle. In addition, goalie skates traditionally remove the tall tendon-guard of player skates, and replace the upper part of the back of the ankle with a soft, flexible material. The point of this was to allow for a greater range of *backward* flex at the ankle required by the old repertoire of skate-saves. It basically serves no purpose now.

There are a couple of ways to compromise here.

Out of absolute necessity, I have experimented with using player boots in goalie cowlings (Flexlites in RBK's). It is the only combination I will use, but it's totally impractical. For one thing, it took me ages to make it work, and it was a painful process not just in terms of finding out what worked but even in building the final version. For another, I have only ever found one shop in Toronto that would attempt it at any cost. So it's either an enormous waste of time and/or money to get something that may not work in the end. If you happen to know an absolutely brilliant skate technician who's willing to give it a try, go for it, but it won't be cheap even if he gets it sorted much faster than a rank amateur like myself.

It is also entirely acceptable for your son to continue using his player skates in goal. At his age, as long as he doesn't face older shooters in shinny and his toes aren't crammed to the toe-caps, the risks are few. If the skates do get too small and his toes press to the end, and he takes a hard enough shot, he could badly bruise or even break a few of the nails or bones. If he takes a hard shot to the holders (unless they're Graf or ICM) they could break; a good shot could also snap the blade itself.

Moving to goalie skates is primarily an issue of protection and durability. Secondarily, it is an issue of performance, since at some point the adjustment will need to be made. Lastly, it can also be an issue of 'image' to slightly dimmer minds. So people don't take a goalie seriously unless he's wearing goalie skates. This not only applies to goalies but goalie coaches; some parents won't give a goalie coach wearing player skates the time of day simply because the image 'doesn't work for them.' This is the same absurd bias that forces kids into horribly unprotective masks that do nothing but look like 'big kid' masks, when they'd be safer in their old helmet and cage.

The Grafs your son used were ideal because the short profile (22') is closer to what he used in player skates. Had they been sharpened to a deeper hollow, he might have loved them. That said, you are absolutely right when you observe that the wider plastic toe of the cowling made him slip out more often and more spectacularly. The previous generation of the Graf cowling was actually nicknamed the 'Elf Toe' because the design was so egregious. In theory, it made the toe of the skate more protective and helped lift pads with a deeper boot-channel away from the skate to allow for easier rotation; in reality, they were just a pain in the ass. Graf has since made a non-Elf cowling that less resembles a pair of ice-dancing clogs.

My honest advice would be to let your son keep using his player skates in goal UNLESS they're starting to get small on him. Let him compare that experience to using the Grafs with a hollow that matches his player skates. Since the blade on the goalie skates is thicker, you'll want to go about 1/16" to 1/8" shallower than on the player skates to keep the same feel -- if the player skates at at 1/2", go to 9/16" or 5/8" on the goalie skates. If he has a preference between the two skates after some comparison (and the one he had today was IDEAL), let him go with it. As soon as you feel he's starting to outgrow his skates or he starts facing older and better shooters, get him a pair of goalie skates. Used will be just fine. Look for CCM Vector 6.0's, RBK 5K's, Bauer Supremes and Grafs. The Bauer Vapors were an unqualified disaster. Make sure he tries them all one, too -- goalie skates DO NOT fit the same as player skates in the same brand and line, with the sole exception of Grafs, which are built on the 705 last. You can always have the goalie skates profiled closer to his player profile. It's impossible to get a 9' profile on a goalie skate, but you can certainly find a happy medium to ease the transition.

Hope that helps!

This post has been edited by Law Goalie: 19 July 2009 - 05:48 PM

[jimmy]

goodguy,

You will experience frustration with your son many times in the future. New equipment, never feels good first time using it. Goal equipment, from skates to helmets, needs time to break in and for the player to get accustomed to. The worse is the C/A, and pants run a close second. Every piece of equipment needs to be used several times before it begins to feel good and also to determine if something is really wrong. In the graf skate example, even if it was sharpened deeper, there still would be adjustment period, especially coming from a player skate. Hvve your boy be patient with changes and make sure he knows up front that it's going to feel "different" at first. Carpet Fly and wearing equipment around the house before you head to the rink does wonders. If you let him get finicky, he'll be a nut case every time he changes equipment.

I don't know if you guys recall, late last season Tim Thomas of the Bruins was forced to wear Manny Fernandez's mask during a game when his broke. Yes, it didn't fit right, but those 5 minutes he wore the mask, was like he never played goal before. His whole game was off.

Just to note, the FBV does work great on goal skates, super bite, great maneuverability, hard to describe but I was using a 15/32" hollow and then went to the 100/75. Easy transition, feels better but hard to say exactly why. I can shuffle and pivot easier, yet still have great grip. I wouldn't say the advantage is so much better than a deep hollow, but it still feels and works nice. I don't recommend a hollow deeper than 7/16, as the edges are thinner and breakoff/wear quicker. Of course you can go deeper, but you will be sharpening much more frequently. For radius, find a shop near you that offers some choices as most shops only have 1, perhaps 2 goalie templates. These may not be right for your son's size skate. The most important thing is to have some pitch put on the skates as it improves balance, stance, and maneuverability quite a bit more than just the rocker radius by itself. Good luck. You are on the right track and Law Goalie's advice is spot on.

This post has been edited by jimmy: 02 August 2009 - 08:29 PM

[Law Goalie]

Heh - I remember that incident with Thomas in Manny's mask. I'll bet he was on the phone to Sportmask to order another half-dozen Mages after that...

Equipment tinkering is a dangerous road to go down. On the one hand, while modifications (whether by the manufacturer or aftermarket) can solve particular problems, the mindset of 'I can always make this better!' leads to borderline compulsive behaviour. I force myself to have a time-out period every time I change something on my pads.

I'm fascinated by the possibilities of FBV for goalies. It looks like a perfect solution to the problem of shuffling with a deep hollow. With a radius, it seems like the bite-angle is a constant; with FBV, no so much. The guy who uses 1/16" is a nut - brilliant goalie, but bonkers. (He tried to get THC to make him a 35+5 pair of Koho 580s around the time of the Premier II... you can imagine how that went over with Lefebvre.) I can't wait until the shop gets the machine in.

Good point about the pitch in conjunction with the profile radius; I completely forgot to mention that. It was really the pitch that threw me off in transitioning to player skates for coaching, even after I put a 65/130 CAG profile on my 709s.

This post has been edited by Law Goalie: 20 July 2009 - 08:45 AM

[jimmy]

Yes, Thomas now has a spare mask he brings with him, something he never did before. In retrospect had the B's won that game, they would have taken the President's Trophy. Who knows, perhaps that would have made them play better against Carolina!

I use to be a freak about equipment, hated to get anything new, never liked the feel. As I learned though, after a good break-in, I always loved it. Never had to mod anything.

For sure at least try the FBV, it may work better for you.

This post has been edited by jimmy: 21 July 2009 - 06:05 AM