[Law Goalie]

Since this forum has been seeing a little more activity as of late, I thought I'd throw out a technical question for us to kick around.

At base, the V-H is a relatively new application of a very old move: the leg-drag. One knee snaps to the ice, laying the pad horizontal; the other leg remains vertical, keeping the skate-blade in contact with the ice. (Incidentally, the V-H is also an intermediary stage in transitioning to a butterfly slide from the stance, and in the backside recovery.) A couple of great illustrations, all of which focus on the use of the V-H in its primary role as a post-hug position, courtesy of Steve McKichan and Warren Strelow:






Strelow also suggests some quite strict limitations on the use of the V-H as 'post-load' position, which he diagrams as follows for USAH:


The red areas below the circles indicate where the puck should be before the V-H should be adopted; if the puck is outside there, he argues, the V-H is unnecessary and/or opens up egregious amounts of net.

So: who uses this, and how do they use it? Do you think Strelow's diagram is more or less accurate, or should it be expanded or limited in certain areas?

[Oykib]

I have tried to incorporate it myself but I don't have the size to use it effectively. I think with size it is better then standing up hugging the post.

[Law Goalie]

That is one of the major issues - if a goalie doesn't have a long torso, he risks giving up a ton of high short-side goal without even forcing the shooter to go bar-down. This is especially true on the blocker side, since the glove can't be stacked on top of the pad to eliminate the rest of the high net: it's just the short-side shoulder covering high.

That said, I'm only 5'11", and I've had decent success by restricting my use a little more, keeping it to much tighter plays. When I'm using it effectively, I generally limit it to the triangular part of Strelow's diagram closest to the posts, and a smaller patch below the goal-line. I really like the way it lets me get my glove involved in intercepting low, tight passes, and prevents accidental deflections on the short side.

I find my greatest problem is over-using it: dropping into it early and lazily, and getting sniped to the far high corner against skilled shooters with disguised releases, or getting settled in when the puck's below the goal-line, and encouraging a guy to sneak in and set up for a one-timer in the low slot.

[shooter27]

How about an opinion from a shooter's point of view:

To me, that move is much more effective when I'm on my backhand (right hand shot on the left side of the net from the goalie's perspective) because it is much harder to really pick that small upper area on the backhand and to get to the forehand requires that "question mark" type spin move to the forehand. On the other hand if I'm on the off wing (right side of the net from the goalie's perspective) its much easier for me to get the puck to the forehand and either hit the inside of the far post or a quick stretch across that changes the angle slightly but still lets me get off a good shot.

[Oykib]

shooter27, on Nov 3 2009, 10:49 PM, said:

How about an opinion from a shooter's point of view:

To me, that move is much more effective when I'm on my backhand (right hand shot on the left side of the net from the goalie's perspective) because it is much harder to really pick that small upper area on the backhand and to get to the forehand requires that "question mark" type spin move to the forehand. On the other hand if I'm on the off wing (right side of the net from the goalie's perspective) its much easier for me to get the puck to the forehand and either hit the inside of the far post or a quick stretch across that changes the angle slightly but still lets me get off a good shot.

The only real time I use it is when the puck is behind the net and I expect a quick shot from in front. I have 1/2 the net covered and is pretty easy to cover the rest if the pass goes across. I have had several pucks fired at my pad thinking it is where the 5 hole used to be.

[Law Goalie]

Oyk, that was exactly my reservation about Strelow's diagram: he doesn't want it used below the goal-line, period, and I find it incredibly useful against that kind of tap-in play you describe, both in terms of taking away the expected five-hole and getting the glove closer to the ice. My only reservation is that I find it more difficult to freeze a puck that's thrown into my vertical skate against the post, or into the side of the net. I feel like I have to really throw myself out of position to reach around, which I don't if I'm, say, paddle-down in the butterfly with my knee against the inside of the post (which of course leave the high short-side massively vulnerable).

The other neat thing about the V-H your mentioned, taking away the five-hole that the shooter thins should be there, is something I've seen a few of the most mobile butterfly goalies use against breakaways and 2-on-1s (especially Fleury, and Price, when he's on his game). Fleury in particular will challenge the shooter aggressively, and as he retreats, snap the far-side knee down into the V-H. Keeks' theory is that this is partially an attempt to throw off the shooter, giving him an unexpected look and taking him off his go-too move onto something secondary, while leaving the goalie in a relatively strong position, with the short-side angle more or less covered and the backside leg loaded to push across. On the other hand (literally), I've seen Price overuse it against off-wing shooters and get lit up, especially against left-handed shooters on his right side who just snap a quick Jussi Jokinen-style shot inside the post, sixteen-inches blocker-side.

The handedness of the shooter (on-wing, off-wing; forehand, backhand) absolutely plays into this - although it can play both ways, depending on how smart the shooter is, and how much time and space he has. I think shooter27's bang on to observe that, for a shooter on the backhand, unless he's unbelievably good and using a butter-knife for a blade (e.g. Crosby and Gretzky, hell even Brent Gretzky), going bar-down short-side is a pretty tall order. For any skilled shooter, taking the same shot on the forehand from his on-wing, or the far-side shot on his off-wing is far more attractive option. As #27 mentioned, the toe-drag from the on-wing forehand back towards the middle, shifting the shooting-triangle to open up the far-side, is equally dangerous since it forces the goalie either to commit to a butterfly slide across, or shift back to an upright stance to track the movement.

In fact, maybe that's not a bad way to think of the V-H. It isn't really a butterfly move - it's more of a shifted stance. It reminds me of something Tretiak wrote about in his book on goaltending, where he talked about himself and Tarasov coming up with his "crab stance." Basically, depending on the handedness, position and options of a shooter, Tretiak would shift his stance off-centre so that one leg was right under the shoulder, bent and loaded, and the other extended diagonally away from his body: a basically V-H, but without the knee fully down. Takes a ton of strength in the loaded leg, and an incredible level of situational intelligence, but it sure worked for him!

(P.S. Thanks for venturing into the goalie forum, shooter. Always nice to get things from the other perspective: same reason I make my wee goalies skate in front of big mirrors. :) )

This post has been edited by Law Goalie: 04 November 2009 - 07:29 AM

[DCott]

I like it and don't like it. It works well for passes from the sides and corners to directly in front of the net, because that pad is already down, and is great for a fly push from the post. However, that's really the only move you have for a quick shot. If the pass goes to the point or slot, you've got to lift that leg to get on your feet, and then potentially go down again. I guess I'm old school in that I'd prefer to stay on my feet unless a shot is imminent.

I do find myself often using a similar stance in this situation, in which one pad is vertical with the post, and the other is not down, but still low and crouched. I find it allows me to go to the bfly slide, or move of my feet. I guess I'd call it VD (vertical/diagonal)?

This post has been edited by DCott: 04 November 2009 - 11:49 AM

[jcp2]

Sounds like Tretiak's crab stance, but against the post.

[Law Goalie]

Law Goalie, on Nov 4 2009, 07:28 AM, said:

...
It isn't really a butterfly move - it's more of a shifted stance. It reminds me of something Tretiak wrote about in his book on goaltending, where he talked about himself and Tarasov coming up with his "crab stance." Basically, depending on the handedness, position and options of a shooter, Tretiak would shift his stance off-centre so that one leg was right under the shoulder, bent and loaded, and the other extended diagonally away from his body: a basically V-H, but without the knee fully down. Takes a ton of strength in the loaded leg, and an incredible level of situational intelligence, but it sure worked for him!

DCott, on Nov 4 2009, 11:47 AM, said:

...
I do find myself often using a similar stance in this situation, in which one pad is vertical with the post, and the other is not down, but still low and crouched. I find it allows me to go to the bfly slide, or move of my feet. I guess I'd call it VD (vertical/diagonal)?

jcp2, on Nov 4 2009, 02:00 PM, said:

Sounds like Tretiak's crab stance, but against the post.

I think we're all on the same page here - which is interesting, because I can't recall anyone talking about it in these terms before.

I rather like this way of thinking about the V-H: that it's an extreme version of a shifted stance, and its weaknesses should be evaluated as such. It's not simply a question of how much net you're filling up, but what of the net and how you can move out of it. A Greg Millen-style completely upright stance (knee together, ankles together) also works decently well against the post to fill the angle in the same areas Strelow highlights; limits the goalie's movements and options in different ways.