Skate profiling advice - need help before Saturday!

[louierev07 31]

Two months ago I started using makos. I love the more aggressive pitch that they come with, but I'm not totally sold on the feel of the boot. (At first I loved them, but Im not sure if I might like the traditional feel of Vapors more).

I recently got my hands on a pair of APX2's for really cheap, so I decided I would try out both, and then see which I liked better.

The problem with trying them head to head, is that the profiles, and stance is so much different that for me its hard to go back and forth, and hard to judge which I like better, because the pitch plays such a huge role.

My first thoght on how to make them the same was to just add a shim to the Bauers to get them to be the same. The problem I saw with that though is that the blade was shaped very different on the two skates, so even at the same pitch, I wouldn't be guaranteed the same feel - so I didnt do that. (shape of the heel, toe, etc)

With that in mind, I started to consider getting them profiled to match. This way I could have them shape the blade, and match the pitch to be identical without having to add a shim.

I think im gonna take a ride to noicing on saturday to have them do it, since Ive heard they are very good.

Since Im going out there to get my APX2 to match the vapor, would it do me good to get a "custom" profile that matches me? Like I said - I do like the feel of the makos, but would they be able to give me something more tailored towards my height/size/skating style, etc? Im getting one done, so if there ever was a time to try out a custom profile, I guess this is it.

Lemme know what you think, and if you have any information about profiling that would help me. Thanks!

[Chadd 916]

You want a "custom:profile", but what do you want? What issues are you trying to address?What do you want to be different? Basing it on your height or weight is really not a good idea. If there is something that your current skates are preventing you from doing or causing problems with, those are the things to change.

Personally, I do not believe in custom profiles that are based on anything other than answers to specific questions like that. Some shops seem to give everyone the same "custom profile" and it is no more "custom" than getting the house sharpening.

[flip12 699]

It sounds like you're on the right track--you've found a blade profile you like much better and now you're trying it in a different boot/holder. Maybe there is an improvement on that profile, but don't try to find it while you're doing the boot comparison. It can be nearly impossible to tell what's causing what effect when you're changing two things at once. After you decide which boot you like better, or not if they end up about the same, then see if you can tweak your steel if, to +1 what Chadd said, you feel like there's something your preferred profile is still not giving you.

[Mimizk 114]

I think you don't have to change if you already know the best contouring profile for you.
It will solve you go to the shop and just say "do contouring as this".
If you don't know the difference of 2 boots' pitch, you change their holder to the same.

But every boots have different balance point.
If you profile it completely the same as you want, you have to decide the balance point every boots.
The change effect likely feeling as changing pitch.

The center point which marked on holder of this photo is balance point.

It's enough to notice you feel something change if move the point 2or3mm.

If you change it over 5mm, it brings you huge difference.

Especially if you have been using custom insoles, your arch would be not able to move back and forth.

So need to adjust this factor.

The profiling center is usually decided by outward, external form and jig.

You can realize it is not exactly method.

[jimmy 194]

As was said above, you are dealing with two totally different boots, even with matching holders and blades, they are going to feel different. Both the Makos and APX have same 9' factory radius so what you are looking at is likely just a pitch adjustment. This is assuming that both pairs runners havent been altered very much by sharpeners, at that point it is difficult to know what radius/pitch is actually on the skates. Makos have an aggressive pitch. It sounds like you like that, so start there.

[Mimizk 114]

This is other story though,

I think it's more better to use contouring than not use because we will not be able to duplicate when we buy new skates.

We struggle every time we change the skates or runners.

So I think I should contour my skates even if I don't need any specially setting for it.

I advice you that it's also better way to decide your true or trust contour profile on this occasion, but not chase your previous settings.

[louierev07 31]

Sorry I should have made myself more clear from the start. I really dont know the advantages of a "custom" profile, or if there would be any at all. I was just figuring, since I am going to be having the Bauers profiled so that they are the same as the makos, now would be as good a time as any to have myself "fitted" (if thats even a thing), for a custom profile.

I know I like the more aggressive pitch, but things I might like differently than my current setup:

slightly less aggressive pitch (maybe +2 instead of +3)

different balance point (as mentioned above)

toe shape

heel shape

radius

etc.

I was thinking I would be able to go there and they would be able to kind of lead me in the direction I should take. Again, Ive never done this before, so my thinking could be completely wrong.

As was said above, you are dealing with two totally different boots, even with matching holders and blades, they are going to feel different. Both the Makos and APX have same 9' factory radius so what you are looking at is likely just a pitch adjustment. This is assuming that both pairs runners havent been altered very much by sharpeners, at that point it is difficult to know what radius/pitch is actually on the skates. Makos have an aggressive pitch. It sounds like you like that, so start there.

I talked to the guy at noicing, and he said that the total pitch adjustment needed on the vapors would be +3 (holder and runner taken into account on the makos)

Now if it was as easy as just a pitch adjustment, then a heel lift would be the best way IMO, but when comparing the blades, they are VERY different when it comes to the heel and toe. This is why I think a complete reprofiling on the vapor blade is the best way. I would like it to match the mako exactly, so when comparing boots, I dont have any other factors to think about.

This is other story though,

I think it's more better to use contouring than not use because we will not be able to duplicate when we buy new skates.

We struggle every time we change the skates or runners.

So I think I should contour my skates even if I don't need any specially setting for it.

I advice you that it's also better way to decide your true or trust contour profile on this occasion, but not chase your previous settings.

YES! This is what I was thinking, and why I wanna go up there. I kind of have an idea of what I like, but I would like to go have a profile done for me. This way, I will know what I like, and will be able to apply it to any new pair of skates I get in the future.

I also plan on using their mailing service to get my blades sharpened, so since a reprofiling is usually necessary after a while, they will be able to reset me back to my original setup whenever I need them to.

Is the trip out there worth it though, or should I just mail them my blades, and tell them what Im looking for? Is there any benefit to me being there and having the profile tailored to me? Or does it not really matter?

[chippa13 1844]

I always chuckle a little when someone responds to "Jimmy" with something like "I talked to the guy at No Icing".

[markush 12]

The LS3 steel is really great for profiling.

[jimmy 194]

I always chuckle a little when someone responds to "Jimmy" with something like "I talked to the guy at No Icing".

I know the guy at no-icing, super nice guy. :-)

Louierev07, Your mako blades are different than your bauer blades and are still going to be different after they are profiled. I think you are confusing profiling with what it actually is. To match a bauer blade exactly with a mako blade is not normal profiling, That would involve a lot of grinding, much more labor and costly job. Not needed in your case anyway. I think you should have some pitch put on your bauer blades. You can have the pitch put on with a 9' radius. This would be a good place to start. If you are going to drive up to no-icing, we can discuss it more when you get here.

[Mimizk 114]

Probably the shop person knows his or hers contouring theory so I ask you to hear or learn from them firstly.

Then I talk my way of contouring.

I usually using Blademaster's Custom Radius system for contouring for several recent years.

I also have an experience I've used Fleming Gray's system though I didn't touch it my self.

We can't repair or fix the steel already sharpened.

So I choose from less amount contouring.

For example if you try changing radius of straight bottom line, try from long feet to down, small feet.

Sequence number is

(0. Insert your correct insole)

1. Balance center point (If you change the pitch, this factor also change.)

2. Radius of straight bottom line (You should consider this factor for 2things, stability of back and forth + ability of turn.)

3. Pitch and heel lift (You should insert heel lift shims if you need more than +3 pitch because it break the balance of steel's height.)

4. Radius of toe from thenar (If you have feeling that you stamp something like too long board, you should cut this section.)

I'm using 13' bottom radius and +1 pitch with 3mm heel lift shims.

Then cut the toe off as tracing holder line from thenar.

Balance point is also moved comfortable point.

[louierev07 31]

I know the guy at no-icing, super nice guy. :-)

Louierev07, Your mako blades are different than your bauer blades and are still going to be different after they are profiled. I think you are confusing profiling with what it actually is. To match a bauer blade exactly with a mako blade is not normal profiling, That would involve a lot of grinding, much more labor and costly job. Not needed in your case anyway. I think you should have some pitch put on your bauer blades. You can have the pitch put on with a 9' radius. This would be a good place to start. If you are going to drive up to no-icing, we can discuss it more when you get here.

Ah I see. I was thinking that since the steel was gonna be grinded down, that you could kinda choose the shape of the rest of the blade.

So really, as long as I get the pitch to match, this should fix most of my problems. Right?

How much will the different blade shapes affect my experience?

I think what I'm gonna try first is the shim, since I've done it myself before, and it's the most cost and time effective option I have right now (unless I make the 2+ hour drive). seems like it should give me the same result, except that I'll be a few mm higher than the profiling option.

If that doesn't give me the result Im looking for, I guess I could always try a profiling, or maybe even replace the tuuk with a cxn holder.

I've converted Ice skates to roller blades, so I can't see the process being all that hard.

Thanks for the help!

[jimmy 194]

Shim is a good place to start. This will give you the pitch you desire. Then you can skate on them and see how they feel. At some point I strongly recommend you get them profiled, if for nothing else to ensure the left blade is aligned with the right, both radius and pivot point. Even if you just got a 9', think of it like a front end alignment in your car. Profiles on blades from the factory are more often than not mismatched between left and right. I did a pair earlier this week for a customer, brand new blades, never sharpened, they were off from each other in so many ways, all 3 radius on the blade were different and the height was off on one by 3mm.

[louierev07 31]

Shim is a good place to start. This will give you the pitch you desire. Then you can skate on them and see how they feel. At some point I strongly recommend you get them profiled, if for nothing else to ensure the left blade is aligned with the right, both radius and pivot point. Even if you just got a 9', think of it like a front end alignment in your car. Profiles on blades from the factory are more often than not mismatched between left and right. I did a pair earlier this week for a customer, brand new blades, never sharpened, they were off from each other in so many ways, all 3 radius on the blade were different and the height was off on one by 3mm.

Sounds good, thanks! Any idea how big of a shim I should use to add +3. I know I could just measure the distance from the front to the back of the boot, and then plug that into an equation, but not sure what point I should measure from.

I think if I ultimately line the apx2 better, I'll probably swap out the holders for cxns (didn't know they were so cheap compared to bauers).

[SalisburyStreets 1]

Shim is a good place to start. This will give you the pitch you desire. Then you can skate on them and see how they feel. At some point I strongly recommend you get them profiled, if for nothing else to ensure the left blade is aligned with the right, both radius and pivot point. Even if you just got a 9', think of it like a front end alignment in your car. Profiles on blades from the factory are more often than not mismatched between left and right. I did a pair earlier this week for a customer, brand new blades, never sharpened, they were off from each other in so many ways, all 3 radius on the blade were different and the height was off on one by 3mm.

I have a similar profiling question with regards to the MAKO and my beater pair of Easton S12s. I brought in my S12s to the LHS asking if they could make adjustments to mimic (somewhat closely) my MAKO pitch. First off he noted the radius on the S12s is 10' so he indicated he'll change that to 9'. He then said he'd add +1 pitch to the front portion of the blade (similar to the MAKO). He didn't seem to think adding +2 with a shim was wise which is contrary to what I read on here (I suspect he's just not aware of the significant pitch impact by the CXN holder vs my RB2 holders).

If I just settle with the radius change from 10' to 9' with the +1 adjustment, am I going to find the skates more similar to the MAKO or will the lack of a shim cause me to experience something completely different than my original S12 profile and the MAKO specs? Put simpler, am I getting closer to the MAKO or creating a monster?

[AfftonDad 88]

DISCLAIMER: I HAVE NEVER PERSONALLY PROFILED SKATES OR ADDED SHIMS SO MY ASSUMPTIONS BELOW COULD BE WRONG.

I did some measuring at home a few weeks ago of various holders at the rear/front tower (http://i.imgur.com/JLKkrgC.png). I found that CXNs (Mako) appear to be around 1.5deg (not the same thing as 32nds) more pitched forward than Lightspeeds/Razor Bladz. Last week I measured the distance on a Blackstone Shaper System holder from the left side of the post to the middle of the pitch knob and it was around 8.5cm. So if my understanding of how it works is correct, each +1 (1/32nd) on the Shaper System should produce approximately 0.5 degrees of pitch ArcTanDeg( (1/32) / (8.5 / 2.54) ). That would put the CXN at around +3 more than Bauer/Razor Bladz.

I also did the math a few weeks ago to figure out how much effect a change at the heel would have for various size skates (http://i.imgur.com/eiqbwAi.png). This chart shows that (for a size 9 skate) each 0.5 degree of pitch is achieved somewhere between 2mm and 3mm. This is the effect that the shim would have if all of it's effect were achieved at the extreme rear of the rear tower, This is however, probably not the case since I think that typically a uniform thickness shim is used throughout the rear tower which I suspect would cause the distance used for the calculation to more correctly be the distance from the front of the front tower to the front of the rear tower. This would make the effect of a shim a little more extreme than what the charts show. At any rate, I was just attempting to get an approximate feel for myself for how much each 32nd on the Shaper System equals in shims (I was trying to figure out how to order a pair of VH skates to get a similar feel to the Mako... In the end I punted and ordered the VH skates with CXN holders on them)

If anyone could shed any light on wrong assumptions I have made I would appreciate knowing that, so I could correct the information.

[sticktime 12]

This may be relevant. Had Mako 2's for 3 months. Got used to the height/forward pitch that the cxn holder and profile of blade give. But, I ultimately wanted to dial it back a bit because I just felt like I was skating on high heels. So to experiment I had the Mako's profiled to a neutral pitch to match my Bauers. And went to public skate to try them out. Both were equal in that I was flat on my feet, maybe even felt like I was on my heels.

Incidentally, I had to give up on the Mako's for two other reasons - my left pinky toe developed a painful bump because the forefoot is so narrow and compact, even had them punched out and it didn't help, and the eyelet row was pressing on my inside left ankle bone when doing crossovers to the left that it became unbearable. Even put rubber and other material in there as a barrier but still painful.

So am now in Supreme 190's and they feel good so far. Did have them profiled to +1 and still feel pretty neutral so may go to a +2, or even +3. Don't know, kinda liking the stability and control I have now.

Also, tried superfeet for a week, and my ccm currexsole for low arches, which I had in my Makos and previous skates, and they both just felt off. The stock insoles make me feel like my foot is sitting lower in my skates and my foot feels in contact with the whoel skatebed. Whereas the aftermarket insoles seemed to create a barrier that I didn't like.

[jonesy9020 77]

If you want to directly compare the Mako and the APX2, and you think you like the more aggressive pitch of the mako but perhaps the more traditional fit of the APX2 boot, the best approach might be to replace the Tuuks with a set of CXN holders and ES4 steel to get the most direct comparison. This has the additional benefit of not killing space on steel for profiling on the APX2s by going with an overly aggressive grind to match the Mako that you may or may not like in the end. You can decide which skate you like better with pitch taken out of the equation, then adjust the pitch/profile on whatever skate you like better with a combination of holder changes, shimming and profiling.

[sticktime 12]

Anyone want to chime in on what the difference will be between 190's profiled to a +2 and 28k's out of the box?

The difference that I know of so far is the reebok holder is a bit higher in the back tower. Would that in effect mimic the +2?

Also the radius is 10' on the reeboks and a 9' on the bauers. Hoping that isn't too noticeable.

Skating on them tomorrow so will ultimately find out but wanted some input on what I should be on the lookout for.