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otto989

Forward Pitch vs. Heel Pitch

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The two holders I've mainly referring to are Cobras vs Tuuks. For the past 3 years I've skated on an off-brand pair (Infinity) with holders that have an angle comparable to Tuuks, but with a longer rocker. I got to be pretty good with them but they recently broke. Yesterday, I bought a pair of Graf 605 Supras, mainly because the boot fit me very well; I didn't really think about the holder, which was a mistake. I'm super comfortable in them, and I can sprint and cut just fine, but I cannot skate backwards or stop with any aggression at all, something I'm normally pretty decent at. Today, I fell flat on my bum quite a few times, something I haven't done in a very long time (at least without someone hitting me). My friends who've previously owned Grafs love them though, even using heel lifts when they've switched brands just to replicate the feel.

So I suppose my two questions are, what are the advantages and disadvantages of skates that put you on your toes as opposed to ones that keep you on a flatter stance? The two holders I'm mainly referring to are Cobras vs Tuuks. I love the Graf boot, should I replace the holders for a familiar feel or just suck it up and get used to it?

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Forward pitch, better forward skating stride, on your heel, better backwards skating.

Neutral means good at both.

Forward pitch requires you to have better body positioning when skating, it doesn't give you a better stride. If you don't skate with enough knee bend, you will be off balance and not skate well at all. Too much heel and you will go right on your ass when skating backwards as well. I know a lot of defensemen that prefer a forward pitch for skating backwards.

The real answer is, it comes down to personal preference. Everybody likes something different. The more forward pitch you have, the easier it is go be up on your toes when skating. By having the heel elevated it forces you into that position.

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I'll tend to agree with Chadd on this one. I use the front of my foot for almost all strides and stops, including backwards pushes. I've never had a pair of ice skates with a forward pitch but my inline setup on the shock rocker is 76-76-76-72, about as much of a forward pitch as you can get and I'm just as comfortale backwards as I am forwards and sideways (crossing over/quickstarts).

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I play defense, I skate on a 11' radius and a +1 forward pitch on LS2 holders. I find my skating has improved greatly both forwards and backwards since going with the forward pitch.

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I play defense, I skate on a 11' radius and a +1 forward pitch on LS2 holders. I find my skating has improved greatly both forwards and backwards since going with the forward pitch.

How do you measure the forward pitch? if LS2's are +1, what would Cobras be? What about the E-Pro holders as well? This is probably a really, really long shot but if anyone could tell me what the forward pitch on Infinity skates are, that would be very helpful.

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How do you measure the forward pitch? if LS2's are +1, what would Cobras be? What about the E-Pro holders as well? This is probably a really, really long shot but if anyone could tell me what the forward pitch on Infinity skates are, that would be very helpful.

I might be wrong, but I don't think that the previous poster was implying that stock profile of LS2 is +1 (since it's actually -1 out of the box), he was just stating that he's skating on LS2 and +1 meaning he custom profiled them to a +1 forward pitch?

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I might be wrong, but I don't think that the previous poster was implying that stock profile of LS2 is +1 (since it's actually -1 out of the box), he was just stating that he's skating on LS2 and +1 meaning he custom profiled them to a +1 forward pitch?

Correct. I had the blade profiled so that the heel of my blade is higher than the toe of my blades, which puts me more on my toes.

In terms of pitch from stock holders. From heel to toe, Custom+ -> LS2 -> EPRO -> Cobra, meaning Custom + holders put you on your heels, and Cobras put you on your toes. Not sure where Easton holders are on the scale.

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Correct. I had the blade profiled so that the heel of my blade is higher than the toe of my blades, which puts me more on my toes.

In terms of pitch from stock holders. From heel to toe, Custom+ -> LS2 -> EPRO -> Cobra, meaning Custom + holders put you on your heels, and Cobras put you on your toes. Not sure where Easton holders are on the scale.

are you talking about strictly the holders? i just want to be sure because there is so much misinformation since many people don't realize it is a combination of boot and holder that gives pitch. i'm still trying to decide if i want to switch holders on grafs i just purchased (custom plus or ls2). thanks for your input.

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are you talking about strictly the holders? i just want to be sure because there is so much misinformation since many people don't realize it is a combination of boot and holder that gives pitch. i'm still trying to decide if i want to switch holders on grafs i just purchased (custom plus or ls2). thanks for your input.

Yes, but my information could be wrong. Maybe JR, might want to share some insight here

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are you talking about strictly the holders? i just want to be sure because there is so much misinformation since many people don't realize it is a combination of boot and holder that gives pitch. i'm still trying to decide if i want to switch holders on grafs i just purchased (custom plus or ls2). thanks for your input.

given how thin the outsoles AND insoles are nowadays I'm really not sure the boot is contributing all that much to the pitch? since you're basically standing on the holder I can't see how anything but the holder & the runner can affect the pitch?

of course it's a bit different with insoles such as superfeet or S15 where the heel is a bit railed, but we're not even talking about that here so what gives?!

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given how thin the outsoles AND insoles are nowadays I'm really not sure the boot is contributing all that much to the pitch? since you're basically standing on the holder I can't see how anything but the holder & the runner can affect the pitch?

of course it's a bit different with insoles such as superfeet or S15 where the heel is a bit railed, but we're not even talking about that here so what gives?!

take into consideration that the outsole can be thicker at the heel (first gen graf g3 really illustrate this) and the curvature of the outsole can be different among different skates

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given how thin the outsoles AND insoles are nowadays I'm really not sure the boot is contributing all that much to the pitch? since you're basically standing on the holder I can't see how anything but the holder & the runner can affect the pitch?

of course it's a bit different with insoles such as superfeet or S15 where the heel is a bit railed, but we're not even talking about that here so what gives?!

It's the way the boot is cut. For instance you have Vapors and Supremes. Both on LS2's, but you need a 1mm heel lift in Supremes to get the same pitch of the Vapors because the boot is cut more upright and less aggressively.

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All I know is after four years on Bauer LS2's, I went to Grafs and was on my toes for six months. Finally had them put back to Bauer pitch and all of a sudden I could skate again. Night and day. Within 5 minutes my skating improved immensely.

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All I know is after four years on Bauer LS2's, I went to Grafs and was on my toes for six months. Finally had them put back to Bauer pitch and all of a sudden I could skate again. Night and day. Within 5 minutes my skating improved immensely.

A lot of variables come in to play. I skated for the first time this past Saturday on my new Graf G35 X (new model-with the UL 5000 holder/Cobra?), and it took me roughly 15 minutes to adjust. I came from Bauer Vapor XXX's (LS2) and was really surprised at how quickly I adjusted.

Based on a lot of the posts here, I was really concerned that this would be a frustrating experience.

I should point out that on the XXX's I skated with the top two eyelets undone, and on the Graf's just the top eyelets were undone. Skating on a matching radius of my XXX's (9' 1/2" neutral).

Once I go over the criteria for a review I'll follow up with my thoughts on the skates.

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All I know is after four years on Bauer LS2's, I went to Grafs and was on my toes for six months. Finally had them put back to Bauer pitch and all of a sudden I could skate again. Night and day. Within 5 minutes my skating improved immensely.

That is your experience, mine is just the opposite. I tried some Grafs and instantly began to skate better than my old skates. Went to Total Ones and immediately took three steps back. Had the TOs put back to Graf feel through profiling and lifts and immediately back to my improved skating I had on the Grafs.

I recently saw some pro stocks of Brooks Laich from the Caps. He had about a full 1/3 of an inch lift in his Supreme skates, so he obviously likes to be on his toes.

So some like it forward, some like it back, just got to figure out what works for you and go with it.

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I think one of the big misconceptions that we have is when ever we see something pro stock we assume it’s what they use, when in reality it’s a lot of rejects that players did not keep for various reasons. In fact I think if a player likes something they'll stick to it to the very end. So if you find a pair of pro stock skates in mint condition the chances are it was a reject, unlike game worn beat up pairs that you get at the end of the year sale which is a lot closer to what they wore for most of the season.

http://www.gettyimages.ca/detail/105082539/Getty-Images-Sport

I see no lifts during the actual game, plus 1/3" is an extreme lift.

Cheers

Its very extreme, and here is a photo of it. Maybe more like a 1/4 inch, still quite extreme. I was told they were Laich's by the customer, maybe they were someone elses. They were very well used though, so I have no doubt that whoever was wearing them was actually using this lift and it wasnt a try it for a game and cast it off skate. Hell, if that were the case, they'd just take the lift out. It was also a Custom + holder, not an LS2.

photo23.jpg

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Sorry to bring up an old thread, but i just purchased the bauer x60 skates. Now coming from Easton 1500cs' i know i'm more on my toes. IF i am to profile my X60's for a more forward pitch? what measurement would i do?

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It seems to me that what really matters is your body type - as well as skating style - with respect to the pitch of a given blade/skate/holder.

The length of your femur; the relative length and weight of your upper v. lower body; etc -- these things and so much more effect how you're going to experience a given pitch.

You really need to dial in to your own best; you'll know it when you hit the sweet spot; it seems to me that everyone - defense and offense alike - should be dialed in on the balls of their feet.

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Well then here is a question. No matter what skate you are using whith what every holder it doesnt really matter. The question should be where on the skate should you have the max steel touching for "push off" when going through a stride?

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Well then here is a question. No matter what skate you are using whith what every holder it doesnt really matter. The question should be where on the skate should you have the max steel touching for "push off" when going through a stride?

hmmmmm....not sure I understand what you're getting at.

Do you mean the ultimate test of whether your dialed-in is whether you have max steel on ice for the "push off" when accelerating?

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All I know is after four years on Bauer LS2's, I went to Grafs and was on my toes for six months. Finally had them put back to Bauer pitch and all of a sudden I could skate again. Night and day. Within 5 minutes my skating improved immensely.

That’s key! I have been skating on out the box Bauer’s my whole life. I cannot skate on anything else. I have attempted on several occasions to change radius and/or pitch and failed miserably. I was told by a power skating coach that the advantage’s you "might get" by changing the radius and/or pitch will not overcome the advantage you have after years of muscle memorization. I remember my first day in juniors, one of the coaches wanted to change my radius from 9 to 11 and another coach said I was skating on a 9’ radius for too long, and I made it this far without problems. This is the issue I face with my daughter currently. She has been in vapors for 2 years, but they don’t fit her well anymore. She likes RBK, but I am worried they will affect her skating. Not to mention years of extra cost do to changing out holders and / or steel.

As far as defense, I played that position my entire hockey career, and I was told on several occasions that weight on your heel’s and a large radius is very beneficial for a defensemen. A player skating towards you has a lot more momentum than a defensemen skating backwards, with this setup you have more leverage. I am sure this can be argued, but I never had balance issues or forward speed issues. I feel it is personal preference. For me, if it isn’t broke, don’t fix it. I also know a skating coach can watch you skate, and may make a suggestion to help your body mechanics while skating.

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